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The Grey NATO – 353 – A Chat With Ben Fogle [Adventurer, Broadcaster, Author, And Owner of Buffalo Systems]

Published on Thu, 13 Nov 2025 06:00:00 -0500

Synopsis

In this episode of The Graynado podcast, hosts Jason Heaton and James Stacy begin by discussing their upcoming travel plans - James to Geneva for the GPHG awards ceremony and Jason to the Channel Islands on a dive boat with Blancpain. They introduce their collaborative pen with Tactile Turn, the CPN1, a titanium side-click pen featuring their orange dazzle camo pattern. During wrist check, both hosts are wearing Blancpain Swatch Scuba 50 watches.

The main segment features an interview with Ben Fogle, an award-winning broadcaster and adventurer. Fogle discusses his journey from reality TV to adventures like rowing the Atlantic and climbing Everest, and his recent acquisition of Buffalo Systems, a UK-based outdoor clothing manufacturer known for its innovative pile-lined jackets used by special forces and mountain rescuers. He explains how this business venture allows him to stay connected to adventure while spending more time with family. In final notes, James discusses a travel router he's been testing, and Jason recommends the "Planet Visionaries" podcast hosted by Alex Honnold and produced by Rolex.

Transcript

Speaker
Jason Heaton Hello and welcome to another episode of The Graynado, a loose discussion of travel, adventure, diving, driving, gear, and most certainly watches. This is episode 353 and it's proudly brought to you by the always growing TGN supporter crew. We thank you all so much for your continued support and if you'd like to support the show, please visit thegraynado.com for more details. My name is Jason Heaton and I'm joined as ever by my friend and co-host, the traveling man himself, James Stacy. James, you're about to board a flight in a matter of hours. How are you doing?
James Stacy Well, yeah, I mean, it all depends on podcast timing. I'm doing just fine, to be clear, that my status is not based on podcast timing. Where I am is. Yeah. When you're listening to this, I will be in Geneva, probably just putting the final touches on my outfit for the GPHG awards ceremony the evening of the 13th. I'll actually, if you listen to this late, I'll already be on the way home. Wow. So, yeah, it's been it's been a bit of a whirlwind of travel. We were recording kind of two episodes back to back. So there won't be a ton of chitchat. But yeah, by the time you've heard this, I've been in I've been in in central in central Europe for a variety of projects for 10 days or nine days by this point. So. And now, Jason, when they're listening to this, will you be on the ocean?
Jason Heaton Yeah, I will be. It'll be our second to last day out on the peace boat out in the Channel Islands. Yeah, we'll be returning on Friday the 14th. So headed back to Ventura Harbor. So yeah, and then an overnight there and then fly home Saturday the 15th. So yeah, we're both going to be gone. Our disembodied voices will be out in the airwaves while we're off doing other things. So I guess that's usually the case.
James Stacy Yeah, and we don't have a ton of chit-chat because of the timeline. As I mentioned on last week's episode, if you're keen on sort of a download from my time in and around Switzerland and Jason's time out on a liveaboard boat with Blancpain, We'll get to that next episode. This episode, we've got a fun announcement to yet underline with our tactile turn TGN pen, which Jason can get into in just a moment. And then we've got a great guest and some solid final notes. So Jason, why don't you kick off the pen so we can get to the guest.
Jason Heaton Yeah, sure. As we've been discussing on the past few episodes, and we're really excited to talk about this over and over again. I hope you're not too tired of it because it's just a cool product. We partnered with Tactile Turn, the Texas-based maker of pens and flashlights, and they've created a custom TGN crew pen number one, the CPN1 version for us, which is a side-click pen in a stonewashed titanium barrel with our... orange dazzle camo pattern on the clip and orange on the buttons which is kind of an echo we're kind of hearkening to our packaging of the cwn one so our collaborative watch with cwc for that it um it takes a pilot G2.7 millimeter ink refill, so pretty standard, easy to refill as you need. So this is a pen that, you know, the price is $139, so it might feel a little steep for a pen if you're not kind of in that space. But we like to think of this as a kind of a buy once, cry once product that's made by a really cool company here in the U.S. and something you'll have for a very, very long time and hopefully will accompany people on all sorts of adventures. The pre-order is now open, has been open for a couple of weeks now and will be through November 30th. And this isn't like one of those pre-orders where you place the order and then wait for months. Like Tactile Turn is actively producing the pens and shipping them, I believe, starting this week because they have all the components for the shipping in place. So, you know, you shouldn't have to wait too long to get your pen. And that's also exciting because nobody likes to wait too long when you're getting something. For sure. And kind of timed well for the holidays if you're thinking about something like that. But let's not rush things quite yet with holiday chatter. But yeah, we're really excited about this collaboration.
James Stacy So check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes. And if you're looking for more background on Tactile Turn, just go back to episode 351. We had Ed Jelly on. Ed works with... tactile turn along with many other outlets that you know a man of many talents but it gives you good background on the company and you know Jason I have experienced these products for the last couple of years and it was kind of a slow but fun process to to get get our heads wrapped around what a TGN pen would look like so here's the version I'm really excited to be able to have one of these to carry around I love the camo pattern and to see it you know extend beyond packaging and It was quite exciting. So, yeah, check it out if you like. And if you have any questions, you can always let us know at thegraynado at gmail.com or on the Slack. So, yeah, Jason, I figure it's time to jump into wrist check. And, you know, I think we're on a similar wavelength today. One of the many things I'm doing in Switzerland while I'm there is with Blancpain. And, of course, you are about to take a trip with Blancpain as well. So I think we've picked a similar watch if the notes remain accurate.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I've got the Blancpain Swatch Scuba 50, 50 Fathoms, the Green Abyss version, which I believe is the most recent one that they produced. It's got this lovely dark green bioceramic case with kind of a deep black... dark green dial. Um, it's actually my favorite iteration of these scuba fifties. I think the one you're wearing is, um, a close second, if not tied, um, for my favorites, but, um, it's a cool watch. You know, I have also have a 50 fathoms, which, which I love. Um, but I tend to wear this one quite a bit because it's so comfortable. And, and even though it's, you know, effectively a swatch watch. It feels it's so well made, like the bezel action, I think, is what's the most surprising about this watch. It's just it clicks around like like a 50 fathoms should. And I just love that aspect of it, as well as kind of that retro type on the dial. So, yeah, that's what I've got on. And I'm actually going to take this watch. on this dive trip out to the channel islands and i'm gonna take a diving i mean it's uh it's rated to 50 fathoms let's let's see you know let's see how it does i mean i i realize there's a bit of a risk it doesn't have a screw and cry on it's gonna be in cold water in and out of the water quite a bit but this is what it was designed to do so let's uh let's see how it does see what happens for
James Stacy For sure, yeah. I don't have a standard 50 Fathoms to call my own. Maybe someday in the future. But for this trip, along with a couple other watches, you know, I'm taking some GMTs and that sort of thing. But I figured it would be a good chance to get reacquainted with my Ocean of Storms, which is the sort of all-black take on the Scuba 50 from Black Pond and Swatch. It's a watch that I wore a lot when I first got it and then through parts of the summer. thereafter, but haven't haven't had it on my wrist in a little while. So I thought it'd be a good chance going back to Switzerland feels right to have a swatch heading to to see, you know, something at Blancpain to kind of take it home as it were, although, you know, not to the swatch factory. But yeah, it's a it's a fun one and a nice watch to travel with as it's, you know, a good lightweight sort of thing to have on your wrist.
Jason Heaton Yeah, yeah, fun. All right, well, that does it for Risk Check. It's fun to have a theme, and admittedly, this theme has nothing to do with our guest this week, which is a chat with Ben Fogle.
James Stacy Very excited to have Ben on. Ben's an award-winning broadcaster. I'm just going to read from, you know, what's on the website, keep it nice and straightforward. But Ben's an award-winning broadcaster and adventurer. He's written nine Sunday Times bestselling books, and he is the former United Nations Patron of the Wilderness. Ben has climbed Mount Everest, rode across the Atlantic, raced across Antarctica and the South Pole, and has crossed the deserts of the empty quarter in the Middle East. He's presented numerous programs for the BBC, ITV, C5, and Discovery, including the hit series New Lives in the Wild. He is a fellow of the Royal Geographic Society. He is an ambassador to the WWF, Tusk, and Hearing Dogs for the Deaf, and a patron of the Red Cross and United Nations. That's a pretty impressive CV, and I'm really excited for this chat. So let's not belabor any further introductions and get right into it with Mr. Ben Fogel.
Jason Heaton Ben Fogel, welcome to The Grey NATO. We're really pleased to have you on, and it's a thrill to talk to you. I have to admit, I'm a bit of a fanboy, because even though I'm not based in the UK and haven't really seen many of your TV programs, I do have your Land Rover book, because I'm a Land Rover owner myself. I've got two old ones, and I just enjoyed your book, so I just thought I'd kick it off there.
Ben Fogle I love that. A fellow Land Rover geek, as we call one another here in the UK. I'm sort of a man of many passions, is what I'd say. And Land Rovers are kind of one of the things that I have loved ever since I was a young boy. I could spend hours talking about Land Rovers.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I think I could too, and we probably should restrain ourselves because we could probably end up filling the whole time talking about them. Which Land Rover?
Ben Fogle Have you got a Land Rover?
Jason Heaton I have two. I have a 1976 Series 3 that was brought over from Scotland. And then I have a 1993 Defender 110 two-door that was former British Army. So it's a 200 TDI diesel one. And that's my daily driver. That's what I drive. So they're both a lot of fun.
Ben Fogle I love that. Very fine taste.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Well, thank you. And you have an old Series.
Ben Fogle Do you know, I rotate through cars. I have to kind of get them past my long-suffering wife. We rotate a lot. I've had a lot of different vehicles. I don't have any series models right now, currently. But I've had three series ones. One which was actually a beautiful blue replica. It had been painted blue retrospectively to mirror the one that they had on Her Majesty's Yacht Britannia. before it was decommissioned. It's so beautiful. I currently drive actually a 2009, I think, short wheelbase, the 90, which I got done in the Heritage Colors. Actually, it wasn't too far before the last ones off the line, but it's my everyday drive around. I love it. It makes me smile. It makes other people smile.
Jason Heaton Yeah, it totally does. We continue to digress here. But here in Minneapolis, we have a pretty sizable community of kind of East African expats, immigrants that have settled here. And of anybody that notices it or comments on mine whenever I drive them, it's these guys. And it's just thumbs ups and waves and smiles. And they back home. That's what we used to drive. And, you know, everyone's so enthusiastic about it. It's great.
Ben Fogle A last little heads up for any fellow Land Rover lovers who might be listening to this. If you want to go to the Mecca, the holy land of Land Rovers, you go to the Falkland Islands. And the Falkland Islands have Series 1s still in everyday use for hard work used by farmers. And there are hundreds and hundreds of Land Rovers there. It's extraordinary. Really? Oh, my goodness.
Jason Heaton All right. Well, we probably need to have a separate podcast for all of this because I'm getting all excited talking about Land Rovers. Before we move on to Buffalo Systems and your background and whatever, let's talk about another favorite thing, at least for us on the Grey NATO. Are you a bit of a watch guy? Do you like watches by chance?
Ben Fogle I love watches. And this is a bit of an exclusive for you because I don't ever really talk about my watches very much. I'm quite private about my watches, but it is a secret little passion of mine. And I, in fact, I got all my watches out. I keep them in a secret place that no one is ever going to find. I got them out the other day to show the children because actually even they haven't really seen them. Bizarrely, I don't often wear, I am wearing one today in honor of you. I have worn one of my favorites, but I kind of keep them hidden away and I love to look at them and I do wear them. Funny enough, I only wear my watches on expedition. I don't wear my watches in everyday life. So whenever I'm going overseas somewhere, I will always put one on. in day-to-day life here in the UK. I'm in Sheffield today. I usually wouldn't wear one. But it was really fun to go through them with my children and explain... the provenance, the dates, some of them that had been tweaked a little bit and adapted by other people. It was really fun to go through some of them with them. And I've worked with some watches over the years. And I know you're desperate to know what kind of watches we're talking about now. A whole eclectic mix. So actually the one that the children still love is my original emergency, Breitling emergency watch. With the full pin that pulls out. No longer working, as in the watch works. I believe they've turned off the listening device, but it was the one used by pilots back in the early 2000s, late 90s. And... That's the first kind of significant watch that I had really in my collection. I wore it when I rode across the Atlantic. And so I wore it for purpose rather than for aesthetic. And I still have it and it still makes me smile because it brought me such security on that road just in case. There's a famous actor called Johnny Lee Miller that I think is equally famous on your side of the pond as is famous over here. once married to Angelina Jolie and from Trainspotting lots of great shows he was going to come to the South Pole with us once and in anticipation of that I got him an emergency Breitling watch and Johnny won't mind me saying that in his Early days, he was a bit of a partier. And I was always terrified that I had written, my name was on the piece of paper, that if he accidentally pulled the trigger to call out a rescue. And for your listeners who aren't sure what we're talking about, it actually has a pin with a hidden EPUB. And a rescue helicopter will be sent out to wherever you are at great cost. And you have to pay for it if it is not. a genuine crisis. So I was, for years, I was terrified that he might have gone drinking, had one too many, pulled the pin, and suddenly I get a $50,000 call-out charge. It hasn't happened, and luckily they've turned off the listening device. But the Breitling is kind of just one of my old-time faithfuls. The watch I'm wearing today, which is one of my favorites, I've got a handful of... All vintage Rolexes. My favorite, though, is my Tudor Snowflake. That's the one I have today. I always wear them on a NATO strap. I don't like the metal straps, but I love the craftsmanship that went into it.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. That's a great pick. Um, I had a snowflake, uh, that I sold. It was from 76, same as my old Land Rover. Um, and yeah, I have a fondness for Tudor as well and old Rolex. So that's great.
Ben Fogle I think, I think Tudor is underrated really. I think I don't, I'm not a mad fan of the really big faces of the, the new watch collection, but, um, but I really like, I like the sizing of all the older watches. um i i my personal commentary on modern watches is they've just got a bit too big for my liking um i love the simplicity of it and i think if you look at the aesthetic of a tudor snowflake and a land rover series model car there's a lot of similar dna in the simplicity and the size of all of them yeah everything's just got a bit bigger now.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Yeah. So true. So, okay. So you touched on rowing the Atlantic, which was part of the kind of the intro blurb that we read about you from your website. And there's just so many other exploits that you've carried out that I've, you know, I'm just looking here, you know, climbed Mount Everest, rode the Atlantic, raced across Antarctica to the South pole and crossed the deserts of the empty quarter. I got to ask, how did this all begin? Like when you were young growing up, I noticed you were in the Royal Navy Reserves. And like, how did you embark on this this life? Did it kind of just fall into place or did you have an ambition from early on?
Ben Fogle It sort of happened by chance. I suppose two of the books I've written were called The Accidental Adventurer and The Accidental Naturalist, because I work with a lot of wild animals as well. And I think it did all happen by accident. But I think I probably credit Canada for the start of all of this. My dad is Canadian. I spent all my holidays in Canada. in Ontario, out around Muskoka and Georgian Bay and the Kawartha Lakes. And I loved it there. I loved being outdoors. I loved Canadian canoes. I loved swimming and fishing and camping. And it was in contrast to my very urban day-to-day life in central London. And then the kind of accidents really began when I was in my mid-twenties. It was 1999. And I took part in one of the first big reality shows here in the UK and arguably kind of in the Western Hemisphere. The BBC wanted to celebrate the millennium with a big ambitious project where they would send 36 volunteers to live on an uninhabited island in the Western Isles of Scotland, the Outer Hebrides, for a whole year. So it was very different to the kind of reality shows we have now. And it wasn't a game show. There was no voting off or there were no prizes. There was no competition. There were no hosts on the island. It was actually the idea, it was a social experiment and it was to see whether we could create a society from scratch. So that was kind of, that was my first entry into... tv and also kind of immersive wild living and i loved it i absolutely loved it and opportunities sort of came my way after it i suppose i i credit rowing the atlantic with a big shift in my career because after i did that cast away it was called cast away after i did that reality show It's very popular here in the UK, really popular. And I got given some TV opportunities, but none of them, you know, it was kind of countryside animal programs. I loved them, but I really wanted more adventure. So I decided to row the Atlantic Ocean as a way of really surprising people. I wanted to test, I wanted to do it myself. I wanted a big challenge, but I really wanted to surprise my critics who just saw a reality show contestant, if that makes sense. We'll all have done it. All your listeners will have watched someone on TV and it's very different. It's really difficult when you've seen someone in one... circumstance on television in the newspapers for many years to see them in any other way that the headline is pre-written and i wanted to shock people that i was more than they thought i was and and rowing the atlantic did that it took us two months i rode with an olympian um a two-time olympic gold medalist in in rowing called james cracknell and we we really captured people's imagination Rowing the Atlantic now here in the UK has become really, really popular. Not a week goes by when I don't read something in the papers about someone doing it. But 25 years ago, it had been done, but it was really in its infancy and it really captured people's imagination. No one could believe that someone like me would do that. And it opened a little kind of... window into the world of adventure and I ran with it I'm someone that seizes opportunity and what came after was all these amazing opportunities some of which you mentioned you know crossing the empty quarter thousands of miles across the deserts of Oman with camels I've been to Antarctica three times now one recreating the Scott Shackleton Amundsen story wearing original gear and Once in modern gear, a thousand miles, pulling sledges and pulks, climbing Everest. So I've been able to embark on all my childhood dreams, I suppose. But along the way, also having all sorts of other wild adventures. I know you're very much into your diving. And probably one of the highlights was when I went scuba diving with wild Nile crocodiles in Botswana. Yeah. So I'm kind of a yes man. I seize opportunities. And actually, my greatest passion over the last 12 years, 13 years, has been making a series that actually shows everywhere in the world except the United States. And I'm not really sure why, because I really think it could be popular. In England, it's called New Lives in the Wild. Around the world, it's called Where the Wild Men Are. And I go to live with people who've dropped off the grid. So they've gone to live in the wildest corners of the world, out to Mongolia, Papua New Guinea, remote islands off New Zealand. And I spend a week with them. These are people who have gone from New York, Delhi, London. They've lived a normal life like you and I and many of your listeners have. And they've just decided to give it all up. Many people have given all their money away. I've spent time with multimillionaires who've given their fortune away to go and live a very simple, humble, off-grid, cutting themselves off from electrics, water, gas, mains, communications, and sometimes even finances. And I love that so much because I get to kind of live a life I thought I might have lived. Instead, I'm talking to you from a little factory in Sheffield that I'm sure we'll get onto. Life takes many twists and turns and I still get to keep my, I'm now 52. I've got two kids. And I think the days of really big adventures, they're not necessarily behind me. I think I'll still do stuff, but I think we move on and evolve and change.
Jason Heaton I'm really glad you brought that up. That was actually one of my follow-ups was. the things you mentioned require a lot of time away. And there's this, um, you know, we've done a certain number of interviews on the gray NATO with, with adventures and explorers from Borgo, Iceland and Laurent Ballesta and a number of, you know, well-known people that have done a lot of things, but so much of it requires time away from home. And I'm sure that that's a difficult balance, um, for you. And I'm just wondering how you, how you maintain that, you know, what does home mean to you? Is it, is it, uh, Or how do you maintain that balance between wanting to get out in the world and do all these things that can take months at a time with a desire to kind of be home? And is your home base really an important thing for you, you know, like your house and your home?
Ben Fogle It's something I've really struggled with over the last few years. I've been doing all the stuff you kind of headlined, I've been doing for 25 years now. And for the first 15, I loved it and I could keep a handle on it. And for your listeners, we're talking maybe eight months away each year. And those eight months away are not sleeping in luxury hotels. They're proper, you know... I say slumming it. Often it's in a nice tent, but often the nature of my job, I'm in a little kind of shelter made of sticks. Sometimes I'm living with hoarders in little caravans up trees. It's not always easy and it's not always comfortable. It's intense, it's hot, it's insect infested. And the harder thing is as I... As I became a father, I've got two children now, age 16 and 15. I found the going away harder and harder and harder, but I was torn because my travel is my greatest, apart from my family, it's my greatest passion. So I found myself torn between the two loves of my life, my wife and my children and my dogs, but also the travel and the adventure. And if I'm to be really honest with you, I kind of... stretched it all too far and i popped you know when we talk about people having mental health breakdowns i didn't really understand how that could happen and and how that could happen to people who are really rooted and really sensible but it happened to me and it can happen to anyone and i was just put i i was you know the metaphorical burning the candle from both ends, I think happens when you just spend a bit too much time away. And for many years, for 15 years, I made home wherever I was. I think my home was happiness within me. As long as I was happy, I could be home wherever I was. But as I've become more and more dependent on my children and my wife and my dogs, I really need them. I want them. I love them. I found myself just so torn. And that is why I'm now talking to you from a very different circumstances, from a little factory in Sheffield, because I sort of had this epiphany. I was like, I love what I do. I'm super creative. I love spending time with good people. How can I do that that doesn't necessitate three days of travel to the Amazon basin to live in a twig house for weeks on end? And I came up with this idea of maybe just... getting into a completely different creative medium where i could still scratch that itch yeah but i could just i could actually enjoy being home a little bit more yeah i i was going to ask if buffalo was kind of
Jason Heaton I don't know if it would be your second act or third act or fourth act of your life, but it seems like a logical next step given what you just said. And I think before we get into talking about Buffalo, one thing I've really admired, and I follow you on social media, is you've been very honest about... Not specifically mental health, but just the difference in perception that people might have of you versus who you are. And I think you've been very clear about like, you know, I mean, someone in your position is kind of your... you can be a target for, for people to kind of make assumptions and make statements about you. And I think you've been very clear, like go ahead and do that, but that's not who I am or, or this is, I'm a real person with feelings and fears and anxieties and et cetera. And I've, I've really admired that about you.
Ben Fogle Thank you. I'm listen, I'm not going to get my violin out and I don't expect people to cry. I'm so privileged and lucky and I wouldn't change any aspect of my life, but I also call a spade a spade. I've always worn my heart on my sleeve and, and, I think it's probably quite similar in the United States, but certainly here in Britain, if you started your life on a reality show, you had your metaphorical Andy Warhol 15 minutes and then you were gone. And I think the reason that I have... outlasted my 15 minutes is because i have always been really true and honest to who i am who you're hearing and who you're seeing now is me i i kind of i'm sometimes honest to a fault uh because i have a complete inability to not say exactly what's on my mind i suspect there's there's a little bit of um spectrum-y stuff going on there. But I don't need labels. I've always been one to say, listen, I think we all have different brains and minds and some of ours are more extreme than others. And I do have an inability to not be anything other than who I am. And I think people quite... like that so in the same way that i'm very happy to to show people the hero photos and tell the stories of when i successfully climbed everest i'm equally happy and i think it's important that you also share the vulnerabilities that you have because especially for men in the mental health area the number of of men who are taking their own lives the number of men who feel they are unable to be honest about their emotions. I think toxic masculinity online has a lot to answer for that we've kind of gone full circle. I think men reached a stage where they were feeling comfortable with talking about their emotions but i now see lots of youngsters who are now obsessed about body image and obsessed about masculinity and not does any matter i'm i'm all for masculinity you know it's part of my thing and by the way i say masculinity I champion and admire and root for women doing everything that I do. But I'm also aware that lots of boys will look at some of the things that I do and go, yes, that's kind of men are supposed to go and climb mountains and row oceans. Again, to be clear to everyone listening. This is not male-specific, and I love the fact that more and more women are getting into this medium. But when we're talking about young men and their role models that they have today, you've got the Andrew Taits, and they have a very, very powerful reach and a very powerful message. So one of the reasons why I'm really honest about everything is to say that you can have climbed Everest, but you can also struggle with your mental health. And I think it's a really important thing that we share with not just our young boys, but our girls as well. I think it's important to show your vulnerabilities. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Heaton That's a great message. Maybe we can talk a little bit about, you know, we talked a little bit about kind of Buffalo being a next act and kind of a logical next step for you to kind of continue in this adventure vein with a heritage brand that's focused on the outdoors, but doesn't require quite as much time away from home or too far away from home for you. Tell us about Buffalo and tell us or tell me how you got in touch with them or how this all came about, your role with the company.
Ben Fogle So having heard about my passion with cars and watches, you won't be surprised that I am equally passionate about... Outdoor wear, work wear. So I collect old vintage jackets, American, UK, Swiss, Swedish. I have a very large collection of jackets, way more than my wife thinks. And I can obviously excuse that because I wear lots of them in the field, you know, and I rotate them around. So all of them have been used. It's a bit like those who have classic cars. Some people keep their classic cars in the garage and it's pristine condition and the wheels are never turned on tarmac surface. For me, even my really precious jackets, and I've got some really, really lovely ones, I use them out in the theater of the outdoors. And I love using them and I love the aesthetic and I love thinking about who wore them before me. One of the jackets that I have picked up frequently over the years is called Buffalo. And Buffalo... It has been around here in the UK since 1979. It was started by a man called Hamish Hamilton, who was one of the outdoor climbers here in the UK, great friends with a number of other people who all started their own brands at the same time. So brands that perhaps are more familiar to the UK market than the US, brands like Rab. and Berghaus and mountain equipment. All of those were started by a kind of elite group of mountaineers. So very similar probably to in the US, lots of your outdoor brands. It was kind of 70s mavericks. You know, they were out on the grit stone here in the Peak District and they needed outdoor wear. Now we take it for granted that you go to an outdoor store, you can buy any jacket you want for... a pretty minimal amount of money. But back then, it wasn't possible. So you had to make your own. So Hamish Hamilton invented this jacket called the Buffalo. And it was built with this unique system called the double P system. It was really controversial at the time because this was a point at which outdoor wear was all about layering, which it still is. So you buy your... You've got your base layer, you then have a mid layer, you might have a fleece, and then you'll have your outer shell. But what Hamish thought was, I want to combine all of that into one jacket that is solid. So you have no way of separating those components. And he came up with this double P system, which is the pile liner. And he invented an outer fabric called Pertex, predecessor of Gore-Tex. And he found out this way that if you combine the two, the Pertex is not waterproof, but it's water resistant. And the pile liner is absorbent. So a little bit of moisture will be let through the Pertex, but it will get absorbed into the pile liner. Sweat from the skin will also be absorbed into the pile liner and the whole thing can dry out in five minutes. So I kid you not, and I've done this test many times, you can jump into a river wearing a buffalo jacket. It's made to be worn against bare skin. You can wear it with natural fibers underneath. You can jump in a river, freezing cold, get out, run around for 10 minutes and the whole thing will be bone dry. It's amazing. And what's beautiful about this brand is for nearly 50 years now, it has been the prized kit of the special forces, the SBS here, the SAS, the army, the police force, border force, mountain rescue in the UK. If you go to Downing Street now, all the police guarding Downing Street are wearing Buffalo jackets still to this day. So it's been a much loved brand. used by kind of top mountaineers who know their stuff but kind of over the years obviously other brands have have been elevated and and have um have dominated and buffalo have sort of just carried on there it's one of the only outdoor jackets still made here in the uk we're not very good at championing uk manufacturing we're not very good at encouraging it So we are pretty much the last frontier of UK manufactured jackets. And it was impossible until just recently, really hard to get hold of. They had no website. And I was in that period of wanting a change in my life, realizing I didn't want to travel so much. And I had an epiphany. I was lying in bed thinking. Hey, what do I really love? I love jackets. I could make a jacket maybe named after me. That sounds a little bit kind of egotistical. And I don't think that's really what I want to do. I love jackets. I don't think I'm an expert. And getting in, breaking into the market is super hard right now. And then I just thought, well, Buffalo, I've been up there. It's not the biggest factory. I had met the owners. I knew that they were getting on in years. So I hopped on a train and I just thought, do you know what? This is how adventures start. I hopped on a train, went up and I just said, hello, would you consider selling the business? And I think they were really shocked. Um, but they had been talking about it and I basically pitched to them what I would do, how I could do it, my passion. And now I'm talking to you from my factory. I can't believe I had to pinch myself. I have a little factory in Sheffield. And again, for your listeners who don't know, it's a hardworking industrial city, one of the biggest cities in the UK, but kind of underrated, beautifully located. It's between all our national parks. So we have some of the most amazing climbing all around us, like 10 minutes from where I am now. And I am now the custodian with my business partner, James Sleater, who is a Savile Row tailor, believe it or not. Wow. I'm now the custodian of this incredible sort of heritage brand. And I can't tell you what a spring into my step this move has brought me. And I'm also glad that you mentioned, you kind of equated this to an expedition because this is, for me, I don't really see this any different to when I decided to climb Mount Everest. Because when you choose to do a big challenge like that... You have to put in preparation. You have to work out your cash flow. How are you going to finance it? You have to work out how you're going to train for it. You have to work out how you're going to document it if that's what you want to do. You have to work out how you're going to kit it, how you're going to assemble your team. And exactly the same happens here. We've got a brand that has been, you know, sort of, they have, I'm careful with my wording here, they... have not been making a huge mark on the world. Those that love it have been buying it, but they haven't been telling the story. And as a storyteller myself, it's kind of what I do as a broadcaster, I want to be able to share those amazing stories. We had an amazing... a very well-documented siege that happened back in the 70s on the Iranian embassy in London. There's a great book about it. There's a film about it. And that iconic image of our SAS soldiers... all smashing through the windows. They're all wearing buffering from head to toe. And I love the fact that we are kind of steeped in history, but people don't really know it. So how we're having a lot of fun is pulling out the archive. We've got so many photographs. We've got pictures of people wearing it on every mountain, on every continent on the world, in Antarctica, in the Arctic. the great and the good. And we're able to kind of pull out all those photos and me using my voice, chatting to you now, I'm able to share the kind of the beauty of this hugely underrated product. I'm not just saying this. I genuinely think if we, if our American friends... had access to one of these to just to see what we have i think you'd be amazed because once once you have worn a buffalo it's almost like you can't go back to anything that's like a comfort blanket because it is all in one it's got and by the way your listeners are probably thinking how does that work what happens if you you start freezing cold in the morning and then the sun comes out you've got no layers to do but there's tremendous venting uh options that you have on this and uh and i can tell you i have used them in the deserts of Libya where it's freezing cold in the morning and gets pretty hot at night. But the venting capabilities and the absorbentness that they have on sweat is just astonishing. And it is kind of a multi-purpose jacket. I'm not going to wax lyrical too much more about Buffalo, but that's why I wouldn't have invested all my money. I'd be a madman to have done that if I didn't genuinely believe in this jacket. And coming from someone who has a pretty large collection of... I've got beautiful Eddie Bauer Karakorum jackets. I've got Nigel Caborn jackets. I've got some of the... barber longshoremen i i've got the great bell staff um trail jackets so i i've i've got some really beautiful jackets but none of them are as effective as some of my vintage buffalo and modern buffalo as well
Jason Heaton So first order business or what we're doing right now or what you're doing coming on the show and presumably doing other things like this in the near future is spreading the word about a heritage brand, an old brand that maybe not many people appreciate enough. The other side is, do you feel a sense of pressure around how do you become the steward of a heritage brand and how do you grow the brand or maybe not grow the brand, but...
Ben Fogle evolve the product line or change products or introduce new products while maintaining the spirit of the company is that something that concerns you or yeah it's really hard when when we go out into the field and we meet mountain rescuers who wear our jackets the first thing they say is don't change a thing and that's very hard when when our goal is to try and change things because we're not really changing things we're evolving things so again for those who don't know the brand they've pretty much only made four colorways for the last 30 years. There's black, there's a kind of purpley color, green, and a lighter blue. That's it. There's only about four different jackets. We've got the mountain shirt, the special six, the belay jacket, and that's pretty much it. So one of our first things was to make a gilet. for example, the sleeveless jacket.
Jason Heaton I got mine yesterday.
Ben Fogle Great. I hope, you know, we'd made those, those had actually been made as a special order for the Japanese market. And we just thought it was a no brainer to actually start producing those ourselves. So I think it's, if it isn't broken, don't try and fix it. So we're going to remain true to the essence of our core collection. But we're going to be creative with evolving from there. And because we're quite a small business, we can be super agile. We had, again, I'm being very honest here, but it's fun sharing the truths of having a small manufacturing business. We launched a navy blue that we're calling the Rannoch Blue in our mountain shirt. And we launched it on the website and we were overwhelmed with orders. As in we had to turn off the tap because we had too many orders. We had so many orders that we had to order a lot more fabric. We ordered it all. And we then got loads more orders, but we ran out of zips. Anyway, we were left with a situation where we had loads and loads of blue Pertex and pile liner, but no zips to make them, which can make or break a company when you've spent a lot of money on all that. So we decided we had a lot of requests. for about 10 years ago, we'd made emergency field blankets for search and rescue, blankets that they could keep in their cars made out of the same fabrics. Almost like an emergency blanket so you can pull over people, you know, like the foil blankets that people use. But these are much more heavy duty. And we just thought, actually, we've got everything we need to make those blankets. We put them online. We sold hundreds in the first day. And what's super fun is that we can be creative and agile and we can... think on the hoof and be really creative. And we're now, as I talk to you, I've actually just come from the design studio where we're trying to put a hole in it to turn it into a poncho because I've got this idea of turning this blanket, making it multipurpose so you can stick it over your head. And when you're watching the kids in sporting matches on a freezing cold night or you're at a football match on the weekend. You can have this blanket over your leg, but stick it over your head. Anyway, the point of telling you all this is that I love the fact that we are still quite maverick. And Hamish Hamilton, who invented the company, was quite maverick. Everyone thought he was mad with some of the designs, the sleeping bag. I mean, you know, that was one of our biggest sellers in the early days, a sleeping bag made of heavy pile. I don't know how much it weighs, but I'm going to hazard a guess it's a couple of kilos. And any of your listeners, you know, you can now buy sleeping bags that weigh... 100 grams. I mean, literally nothing. So we are still quite counterintuitive and there will still be people that will think it's mad that we're selling sleeping bags made of these heavy materials. But if you're around the world sailor, if you're taking part in the Vendee Globe and you're on a humid boat, you will not get a better, I will tell you this, you won't get a better sleeping bag than a Buffalo sleeping bag made with this pile liner. because it absorbs all the moisture away. None of that, you know, if you're in the Arctic, if you're in high Canada and you're camping out on the ice, all that ice form condensation that would form on the inside is pulled to the outside. And so we're still... 40 50 years on fit for purpose and and i love that and you know i going back to that original question legacy is really as i get older i'm 52 now so i'm not you know i realize i'm not i i'm not writing uh my epitaph for my gravestone just yet But I think we do start thinking about legacy a little bit more. And I think a lot of those big challenges that I've done over the years that we started talking about are all quite selfish pursuits, really, because let's be honest, you know, climbing Everest is not changing the world for anyone else but me. And I think you reach a point, especially as my kids start growing up, when I start thinking, OK, well, what am I going to leave behind? And I love the fact that I am now a custodian of something that has successfully survived for the best part of 50 years, which is no mean feat in this day and age. It's incredible that they've lasted for 50 years. So a legacy of mine is carrying on the torch, the mantle of this brand. And when I do pass away in 50 years, I imagine, hopefully, you know, by now. I'm hoping that there'll be another enthusiastic version of me who will be sitting, podcasts will be long gone. This will be old technology, won't it? They'll be doing whatever you, however you communicate in 50 years time and talking with just as much passion about a product which is still fit for purpose, which is basically giving us humans the opportunity to get out into places of great inclement weather.
Jason Heaton and enjoy ourselves getting out whatever the weather yeah do you think that this uh this kind of quote unquote career move for you um will this ultimately take over for some of your work in television or um obviously your travel will will lessen as we discussed but Will you continue to do some of the other things, presenting on television and still doing some of the adventure programming, or will this overshadow that ultimately, or eclipse that?
Ben Fogle I'm always buzzing with ideas, so I never say never to anything. I've actually managed to combine the two, so we're making a documentary about this journey of my life, the trials and tribulations of... of someone who knows very little about actual manufacturing and selling. And I love jackets. I know about the outdoors, but actually the gritty day-to-day is completely new to me. So we're making a documentary series for TV about all the amazing characters that I'm meeting. So I'm able to combine some of the television side. In terms of travel and adventures, I have no doubt there's still some big adventures. ahead of me. I, I know that will happen and, and something will come along at some stage. And I, I do have an inability to say, uh, to say no, I'm hoping as my own children, I grew up. In fact, I'm, I'm with Bordeaux Ausland in, um, in Finza in Norway in February with my son, we're, we're, we're going to go out on the ice together. And I, and I'm, I really. Between you and I and everyone who's listening to this, I'm really hoping that my son suggests a North Pole attempt one day. As I'm sure you'll know, no one's been to the North Pole by foot for the best part of a decade now because of shifting ice patterns and things. But I think it's still possible. In fact, Polar Preet... is currently trying to do it now. She'd be a great guest for you, by the way. In fact, she's a friend of Buffalo now. Oh, wow. And she's trying a solo attempt in the next year or so, doing lots of training up in Canada. But I'm hoping my son might, at some stage, maybe after our time with Border Game, he might decide that he would like to have a go in the snow. So I think... I will always travel. I will always do adventures. But what's really beautiful about this journey now is that I feel really content and rooted doing something in my own country, just a few hours from home, where I get to be super creative and we get to have a lot of fun with a lot of really cool people.
Jason Heaton Yeah. Um, I, I think we're of similar age and I think, um, having come off of, you know, the better part of 15 or 20 years doing a lot of diving and traveling around the world myself, I, I have this theme in my head that you've touched on and that is, and the image that I have, and this will maybe appeal to the wildlife enthusiast in you, but, um, you know, the, in so many of the Attenborough documentaries or nature shows that There's always the pride of lions and the old lion is displaced by the young lion. There's always some shift in dynamics and in the pride. At my age, I'm starting to feel like the old lion a little bit. There's another generation coming up and moving into that space. Um, that sort of reinvention, um, I think it's really encouraging to hear your story because again, we're not writing your epitaph. I'm not writing my own. Um, but, but to kind of reinvent yourself in a way that still is close to your heart or your, your own ethos, um, I think is really, it's neat to see. And I think it can be tough to kind of gracefully evolve, I think.
Ben Fogle I think we all know those people who cling on just a little bit too long, whatever it is that they're doing. And it always saddens me because I have always thought you should quit before you're pushed out. And that's always been my ethos. And when I see youngsters coming up, I get so excited for them vicariously because I have always committed to my own family that... When any of the things that I do become a chore, when traveling to Papua New Guinea to spend a week with one of the tribes becomes boring and just work, I have no right to be doing that and taking that opportunity from someone who would do anything to have that chance. Mm-hmm. I think I have been so lucky with the opportunities I've had already that I want other people to get the excitement I always got out of them. So for me, it's actually quite easy to be that lion moving towards the side, sitting in the sunshine. I still have my mane. Part of it is starting to thin a little bit, but I've still got my mane. I can sit in the sunshine. I probably still get some of that prime meat, but the youngsters are going to get the first pickings of it. But I'm quite happy picking off some of the scraps now. And I think it is a good metaphor for life and it isn't easy for everyone, but I think whatever... whatever you do in your life, this isn't just pertinent to divers or to adventurers or TV hosts. I think this happens in any walk of life that you will always be usurped. And it's those who feel threatened by it that are going to have the toughest time. But those who kind of bow out gracefully and reinvent, work out what you're going to do in the sun, you know, as that old line, you could play dominoes, you could play golf. you might go off on your own little adventures. And for me, it's a nice metaphor that I think my little journey here in Buffalo, it's a bit more sedentary. I can make a nice cup of coffee. I don't have to get freezing cold outside. And I certainly have a good jacket to wear if I do need to go and get freezing cold outside it. It feels like I'm still scratching that itch, but I'm not trying to prove a point. And I think we as humans, especially men, but we as humans spend many years trying to make a point, you know, whether we like to admit it or not. We're all trying to show how we are slightly more alpha or slightly stronger or braver or... cleverer. And I think there is a point at which you have to concede, okay, I've done that now. And I think actually, my 50s is that moment when I kind of think, do you know what, this is who I am now. I can't. I don't think I've got anything else I need to prove or can prove. I want to be a great role model for my children. And I also want them to see that, you know, my father is 82 and he's a veterinary surgeon and he's still in his veterinary surgery four days a week, you know, lifting dogs onto tables, still working. He is so young at heart and physically, you know, he's a young spirit and I think he's a young spirit because he's still doing what he loves. He will also recognize that there will be a moment when it is time to bow out. But right now it's his passion. It's his hobby. It's what he would do if he was that lion sitting on the side. He would still be inviting dogs and cats over to have a look at their wounds. If you're the lion, you might end up eating them. But fortunately, he's healing them. And I think he's a great role model for me. And I've always had a very good work ethic. And I can't really imagine life without having some sort of challenge. My challenge now is taking on the mantle of Buffalo, but I'll continue to reinvent ourselves. I think the days of having one single career, of having one headline, of just being one person are long gone. And I think the beauty of modern life is that you can wake up one day and you're... a scuba diving, uh, expert and you are allowed to wake up the next day and actually suddenly be a Land Rover expert and heaven forbid you can be both.
Unknown Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Heaton Well, I love that. That's a, I think that's a great place for us to end actually. Um, but before I let you go, um, what can you tell us about the availability of Buffalo where people can find the products? Do they, are they shipping worldwide?
Ben Fogle We only launched the, um, the the consumer website a few months ago. And obviously we get to see where they're going and they are going all over the world. I'm amazed because actually we haven't really started our marketing. We're doing a little bit of a social media push, but we haven't really started our big push. We're recruiting some super exciting outdoor men and women to kind of represent the jacket. And I think in the coming months, you'll see a lot more. But yes, if any of your listeners... want to go online to Buffalo Systems, just Google the name, look in a search engine, you'll find it. You can find it under my social media account, Ben Fogel, Buffalo Systems. And we are certainly shipping all around the world with a caveat that your current president does keep shifting overseas tariffs. So to just watch this space, because obviously there are some hidden charges that, not hidden, we will make it very clear, But the global trade is not quite what it was. But yes, we're certainly shipping to America, to Canada, all over the world. In fact, we're sending a lot to Scandinavia. And if the Scandinavians are buying our jackets, apart from the fact that we supply to the special forces all around the world, I don't think it gets much better than that.
Jason Heaton It's a good endorsement. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, Ben Fogel, appreciate that you're taking the time. And this was a delightful chat. We'll have to do it again sometime just about Land Rovers maybe, but who knows?
Ben Fogle We can do a dedicated Land Rover one. I have a lot of Land Rover stories. It's been super fun though. Thank you so much for having me on.
Unknown Yeah. Thank you.
Jason Heaton All right. Well, great chat with Ben Fogel. Just thrilled to kind of talk about his background and his work and especially his kind of recent work with Buffalo Systems. That's kind of a fun little sort of tangent side project or side hustle, if you will, that he's taken on. And both of us have had a chance to experience their gilet, their reversible fleece vest, which is... Yeah, I'm taking it to Geneva. I'm excited. Good use for it this time of year. Yeah, right. Versatile products, long, great history, made in the UK. And it was great to talk to Ben about that and his passion for it and interest in Buffalo systems as well. So thanks to Ben for coming on the show. It was a real thrill. Why don't we step into some final notes? You want to dive in with yours first?
James Stacy Absolutely. So this is something I've been excited about using and I've been testing for a while at home here. And then I'm going to be taking it on the road for kind of its inaugural, you know, field use. And by the time you're listening to this episode, I will have used it several times. It's something I actually didn't know that I needed. And to be fair, I can give an update in the future. Maybe I don't, but it does some really cool stuff. It's actually a travel router. And I have kind of two things to blame for this. One was trying to download a book to my Kindle while sitting on the runway at Heathrow where my phone had almost no connection, just enough to occasionally turn on the tethered Wi-Fi connection from my phone to the Kindle. And like a Kindle book is megabytes. And I just wanted the sixth book in the terminal list, right? Yeah, yeah. Because that's what I wanted to read. And I was able to get just enough connection sitting there to buy the book on my phone. And then I just needed to get it to sync with my Kindle and I couldn't. So I ended up reading 20% of the book on my iPhone while we flew rather than my Kindle, which is very much my preferred method for reading these days. And on top of that, I've become quite a fan of this guy, Josh Phan, who does kind of tech and gear reviews on YouTube. And it could be anything from travel gear to a backpack to a 3D printer to computer gears to desk setups, like all stuff that I'm... I'm his audience for sure. He's a good guy. I really like his presentation. It's very sort of low key and straightforward. I think he's like largely focused on things that make sense for him and he can explain why. And it's not like doing like a major tech channel. It's a little bit more personal than that, if you will. So Josh would commonly bring up these travel routers. And I always kind of felt like, well, why would you need that? What do you need that for? And it turns out you could take this little router and it's maybe the size of like a half a sandwich. Like it's not that big. You can hold it in your hand. You could put it in a pocket, definitely a jacket pocket or something like that. It plugs in over USB. It runs on what's called OpenWRT. So if you're familiar with that, it's like an open source routing platform that allows you to really control a lot of different things. Quick jump in from James here as James is speaking. I did record the entire final notes without saying the name of this router. It is the GL-Inet GL-MT3000 Barrel AX, and you can find it in the show notes. Back to the ramblings. So it plugs in over USB and you can basically link it up with an available so it can be a repeater. So if you're in a hotel and or you're on a plane and you only get one connection for your $25 or whatever, you connect the router and then do whatever you want downstream of it. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. which is nice and then on top of that you know let's say you're you're you're wanting to watch you know home Netflix or home Apple TV or whatever you can run your VPN on that platform rather than on the endpoint if you want and that includes things like if you're more concerned about security not really my main concern but it also includes things like wire guard which are quite nice and And so I've been testing it a little bit on public Wi-Fi's nearby and also on my home Wi-Fi. I have it all set up. And the cool thing is it does sort of multi-input outputs. So you can tether it to your phone. So you could go USB to your iPhone and it'll use that connection and your hotel Wi-Fi. and a network cable, and it'll just blend them all together to give you the best possible service for what's downstream of you. And you get the increased security and control of having your own network and being able to do network-level VPN and that sort of thing. But also, for me, it's like I'm going to get on the plane this afternoon and I'll want my phone and my computer on, and I just wanted to give it a try, if I'm honest. Did I absolutely need this? No, probably not. I've survived without it. It would have meant that I could have connected my Kindle to that wi-fi network because the kindle didn't have the ability to load all of the the scripting and code and everything on the sign-in page for canada if you're rolling your eyes and you're like there's no way anyone needs this i get it you can probably you'll probably do just fine without it but i'm i'm kind of excited it you know kind of entertains the nerd in me and that sort of thing
Jason Heaton Yeah, no, this is cool. Actually, I see some potential uses for this in my life as well. And I might pick one of these up and then ping you when it arrives for some tech support and setup and more of your impressions. But yeah, this is really cool. It's a neat little piece of tech.
James Stacy I'll be able to report back in the future as to like how useful it was. But in all the testing I've done here, it does exactly what it says it does. And it seems quite stable and easy to use. So looking forward to giving that a try. I thought it kind of seemed like a fun thing, especially if you travel a lot while working.
Unknown Yeah. Good pick.
Jason Heaton All right. And how about you? I've got a podcast that I'm ashamed to admit that I did not know existed because they're in season five already. And this is, um, it's actually produced by Rolex. It's, it's called, it's called planet visionaries. And I'll just read this little blurb from Apple podcasts description. It says in partnership with the Rolex perpetual planet initiative, planet visionaries is the landmark series hosted by world renowned climber and founder of the Honnold foundation, Alex Honnold. This isn't a podcast about problems. It's a podcast about solutions. I'm coming into this really late, but he's got... Me too. It says, featuring intimate conversations with figures like Christina Mittermeier, Mark Ruffalo, Sylvia Earle, Chris Tompkins. Great guests. Alex Honnold's just a cool dude. Cool that he's hosting this. And then to go back and find that there's four previous seasons, and I'm looking at some of the topics, and this is definitely not a... I wouldn't call it advertorial. I don't think there's anything about Rolex in this. They're just producing it as part of their Perpetual Planet initiative. It looks like they've got some great episodes with biologists and explorers and adventurers and just a real gamut of amazing guests and topics. A lot to dig into here. I'm just joining, like I said, on season five. So plenty of dog walking fodder for my near future to listen to a few of these. So check it out, Planet Visionaries.
James Stacy Yeah, that's cool. This isn't something I was aware of. I'm just reading over some of the reviews. It does look like there's ads from Rolex, but that makes sense. I mean, it makes perfect sense. But yeah, it looks like it's tied to their Perpetual Planet initiative, which is a huge portfolio of products. And I feel like, did you find this from the email we got recently? Possibly.
Jason Heaton I don't remember how I came across this. It probably was a promo.
James Stacy Yeah, because I saw that email and I said, I mean, Season 5. I know. Yeah. You couldn't have sent me this email in season one.
Jason Heaton It's like what we've talked about with Blanc Pan and their videos, like those great videos. It's like these are like hidden treasures and I feel compelled to like, you know, spread the news because this is good stuff.
James Stacy They're divided by year. I would say they seem to average somewhere around 20 to 25 minutes. And they go back as far as 2021. Wow. Which which looks pretty solid. They all look pretty cool. So definitely maybe you don't listen to every single one or you decide once you get in. But there's definitely it's a pick and choose sort of topic. October 2024, What One Explorer Has Learned in a Lifetime on the Polls. That sounds pretty good. Yeah, yeah. About Felicity Astin. So yeah, this looks cool. Good recommendation for sure.
Jason Heaton Yeah, I mean, just Alex Honnold hosting a podcast is just kind of worth checking out at the very least.
James Stacy So there you go. Episode 353 with a great a great chat with Ben Fogle and some fun final notes. And who knows, maybe you're in the market for a very TGN pen, but quite possibly the last pen you'll ever have to worry about, assuming you can keep your keep your mitts on it. Check that out in the show notes if you'd like. But as always, thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to subscribe to the show notes, get into the comments for each episode, or even consider supporting the show directly, maybe even grab yourself a new TGN signed NATO, please visit thegraynato.com. Music throughout is Siesta by Jazar via the Free Music Archive.
Jason Heaton We leave you with this quote from George Eliot who said, Adventure is not outside man, it is within.